SPARK
SI-015, from issue 3: a subjective guide genuine conversation, 2022.
We can just ask. One person’s idea of a comfortable chair is
not the same as another person’s idea of a comfortable chair.
Rachel Berger is a designer and educator in California. She co-authored A Toolkit for Gathering, a guide to help artists and designers plan more meaningful, productive, and joyful professional gatherings, (with Meg Bisineer, Sara Dean, and Janette Kim), 2021.
RB I feel like I have not yet been held accountable for the content of the kit, so this is a good test.
UDÖ It’s a quote you grabbed from a composer, Crystal Pascucci: “When you are not seeking a single definition or outcome, there is no invalid definition, which breaks down the power dynamic because there is no power to be had.” Can we have a more honest conversation if we get rid of the power structures altogether?
RB Yes, if we find ways to address and acknowledge power structures. But, it’s very hard to get rid of them. If you think of people who are like “oh, I’m not racist, I don’t even see color.” Well, maybe you don’t, but the world does, so you have to acknowledge it, you can’t just ignore it. Power is inherent, so I think it’s important to acknowledge and account for it, then to try and sweep it away.
UDÖ Do you feel power will always be there, but we can do our best to make the other party comfortable? What can be a nice example to make the other party comfortable?
RB Well, sometimes I think we assume that we know what makes the other party comfortable, and for that, we can just ask. For some people, one person’s idea of a comfortable chair is not the same as another person’s idea of a comfortable chair. Roxane Gay is a really amazing author, and a fat black woman. She is often invited to speak on stage and have conversations. And she wrote about the chair that’s on the stage would have arms and she has to fit her body through the chair. She literally would get these bruises and cuts along her sides because she doesn’t fit in the fucking chair. It sounds like torture, and it’s probably a super nice chair, probably a 2000$ Herman miller chair, but to her, it’s probably like a torture device. So getting her a stool, or finding out what she needs, to make her comfortable is so important in being a good host.
RB For example, Mary Banas and I were working on an article together. We interviewed Ramon Tajeda who we knew, and asked him if there are other people we should talk to and he directed us to Homie House Press. I didn’t have a relationship with them. So I asked: “When we reach out to them, can we say you recommended it?” Establishing a common friend is an easy way to make a shortcut in terms of feeling comfortable. Another way to do that is to show that you really are interested in whoever you are talking to by really specifically referencing a project of theirs. It’s the difference between sending the same email to a hundred people and hoping three of them would write back as opposed to sending five emails that are really personal and hoping three of them write back. I found that I have better luck sending fewer of those personal emails. People appreciate that and feel more confident in you when they know you’ve prepared.
In terms of empathy… empathy is so tricky. This really amazing Q&A happened in 2020 at the “Where are the black designers” conference between Raja Schaar, who is a professor at Drexel, and Sandy Speicher, who is the CEO of IDEO. and Raja was asking Sandy whether design thinking is white supremacy and how IDEO is going to deal with that. So intense. Raja, who’s a black woman, was like rather than having to teach all these white male designer empathy, so they are better at having conversations with your Latinx inner-city school teachers. If you just hire some Latinx people from the city as designers, you can just skip the whole empathy teaching because they would already have empathy. I’ve been obsessed with that bit ever since because as a white woman, I’m so interested in being empathetic but it’s also like... Uh... I don’t know… it’s part of my privilege to be like “how can I be more down with you.”. So, I have to be aware and genuine.
UDÖ The will to empathy also comes with a point of we want to reach the other party, we want to help them but we don’t know if the other party needs help. You can also just accept your situation and understand that there are other people in the world who can hold a conversation better than you, depending on the context.
RB Something I’ve started to do with students is that I start my conversation with them. My question will be “how can I help” because faculty are very good at talking forever on anything, but it might not address what they actually want help with. I wanna give students agency to frame their needs for themselves so that I can be more helpful. Motivating them to learn how to articulate what they need is also a good way to make space for someone else.
RB Another strategy that’s similar to that is to be the last person to speak in a zoom call. So just wait, and wait, and wait until everyone else has said something before you speak. If you pay attention to a zoom call with a group of people, 9/10, the white people will speak first because they feel more comfortable or invited. And they don’t hesitate. And you will see other colleagues waiting, and sometimes never speaking, or waiting to speak. In my culture, I am being encouraged to speak so much all the time. So as a practice, I’ve been trying to wait.
UDÖ That doesn’t necessarily address the point of having 1 on 1 conversation with someone, or a small group conversation. But in a larger setting, maybe silence is empowering.
RB Thinking about the role of silence in conversation is very interesting.
RB I need help for doing things I don’t know how to do and I don’t have any money. So, two things I do have, fortunately, are patience and charm. So, if I’m very patient and very charming, eventually, I can get many of the things I want to happen, to happen. If I’m way more talented, I can be way less charming. If I’m way more wealthy, I can also be way less charming. But you have to make up for that gap in other ways.
learn more about Rachel Berger here
interview by Utkan Dora Öncül
Spark Interview-015